Wednesday, 17 August 2005 - 9:56 PM CDT

Huh?
The pullout from Gaza is a victory of Judaism over zionism. The unique contribution the jews have made in the history of the western world is that they brought a sense of immutable right and wrong into the philosophical dialogue. This is the wellspring of Christianity. The Jews have decided that it is better to be right than to dominate. In doing this, they have beaten the fanatics on both sides.

(P.S. I will still make fun of jews, because they are funny and it pisses you off.)

Thursday, 18 August 2005 - 7:07 AM CDT

Greater Israel? Sounds like Greater Serbia. Greater Germany. How many times has the phrase "Greater ______________" been an excuse for ethnic cleansing? I hope that's not what you have in mind.

BTW, the ancestors of the Palestinians - the Sea People (the PLST, for example - the Philistines)- swarmed those same waters and took possession of the land a thousand years or so before the arrival of the Jews, being as far as our knowledge can take us the indigenous people of the land. They were there waiting when the Jews arrived "with flags flying and with all THEIR caterwauling." Plus ca change....

Thursday, 18 August 2005 - 1:13 PM CDT

Being an American, I don't take much notice of the absolute and eternal rights of indigenous peoples to "their" land. That is to say, the Lord helps them who help themselves.

Let the Car Swarm People have Gaza. Because they will never have Jerusalem. No Jew will ever permit it. No gentile Zionist, as I consider myself, will ever permit it, either.

Thursday, 18 August 2005 - 1:15 PM CDT

I know it's complicated for you, Sluggo.

It was good seeing you the other night. Y'all are gonna have to come and check out my new crizzib sometime.

Thursday, 18 August 2005 - 5:42 PM CDT

The Lord helps those who help themselves...to other people's land? Don't know where you got such a silly idea as that.

That's fine, though. Just don't claim to have an historical spine.

"Israel" passed out of existence in 722 BC when the Lord delivered it over into the hands of Tiglath-Pileser, III, King of Assyria. Whatever happened to "Israel" (or "Greater Israel") after that certainly had nothing to do with the Lord. As far as Zion goes, any connection between that and the Jews ended in 70 AD. Whatever happened to "Judah" after that had to do with the United Nations; not the Lord.

Friday, 19 August 2005 - 1:04 AM CDT

Rider, you may have noticed that such places as Jerusalem, Masada, the Dead Sea, and the Jordan are central to Judaism ---and not just as metaphors. That little piece of land is also the birthplace of Jesus of Nazareth, who is central to the most successful of Judaism's spin-offs: Christianity.

If there was ever a moment in History where a particular group of people were more justifiably returned to their historical and spiritual home than when Israel was born again in the wake of the Holocaust and for the sake of world Jewry, I do not know of it.

Your (World Book) encyclopedic knowledge of the history of the Jews and Israel may serve you as well as it can, but it is wrong in any meaningful sense. The Jews' modern-day involvement in creating a Garden in the Holy Land (i.e., the Zionist cause there) is almost a century old. And Jews have fought for their own preservation in that land many times now. I think they have an unquestionable right to their Israel since they have made it what it is today.

Friday, 19 August 2005 - 7:02 AM CDT

Palestine was not at the top of the short list of sites for the Zionist state. I believe the first location proposed was a remote area in Russia. If I am not mistaken, Paraguay was next on the list.

Have you ever heard of the Diaspora? That is the period from 70AD until 1948 which you so blithely overlook. Since you are concerned with "meaningful sense," what meaning do you ascribe to that nearly two millennia of Jewish history AFTER the Jews were separated from the Land? For that matter, what meaning do you ascribe to the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel in the 8th century or the fall of Jerusalem in the 6th century? You pick and choose your history. Two thousand years apart from the land is not chopped liver.

The modern state of Israel could not exist for five minutes without being propped up with massive financial and military aid from the United States. The Jews have made nothing of the land in any "meaningful sense" because they have not made peace.

Friday, 19 August 2005 - 12:00 PM CDT

Rider:

Palestine was not at the top of the short list of sites for the Zionist state. I believe the first location proposed was a remote area in Russia. If I am not mistaken, Paraguay was next on the list.

You're right. That's what Herzl said. And he was full of crap, too. Those places don't have any connection to historical Judaism, but the Holy Land does. There was never going to be any other choice.

Not incidentally, I am an atheist. My support of the Jews and the state of Israel does not depend on any belief in the supernatural.